1 00:00:08,001 --> 00:00:13,000 What does a Hollywood copyright fight from the 20th century have in common with 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,000 royal publishing privileges and the French Revolution? 3 00:00:16,001 --> 00:00:18,000 More than you might imagine. 4 00:00:18,001 --> 00:00:19,000 Hi, everyone. 5 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,001 I'm Chris Freeland, and I'm a librarian at the Internet Archive. 6 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:26,000 In the Copyright Wars, historian Peter Baldwin takes us on a transatlantic 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,000 journey across 300 years of copyright fights and skirmishes. 8 00:00:30,001 --> 00:00:31,000 No surprise. 9 00:00:31,001 --> 00:00:34,001 To fully understand the fights happening today, you have to look back at the 10 00:00:34,001 --> 00:00:37,001 legal and moral precedents set centuries before. 11 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,000 Leading the conversation with Peter today will be Pamela Samuelson, the Richard 12 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:47,000 M. Sherman Distinguished Professor of Law and Information at UC Berkeley. 13 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,000 Pamela is a decorated scholar who has published extensively in the areas of 14 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,000 copyright, software protection, and cyber law. 15 00:00:55,001 --> 00:00:59,001 Today's conversation is co-sponsored by Authors Alliance, and you'll be hearing 16 00:00:59,001 --> 00:01:02,001 from Executive Director Dave Hanson in just a few minutes. 17 00:01:03,001 --> 00:01:04,001 So here's something fun. 18 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,001 The Copyright Wars was published eight years ago. 19 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,001 Peter has designated that it be freely downloadable with a Creative Commons 20 00:01:11,001 --> 00:01:16,001 license at the Internet Archive, which Duncan is sharing out, will be sharing 21 00:01:16,001 --> 00:01:18,000 out in chat now. 22 00:01:18,001 --> 00:01:22,000 You can also purchase the book in print from the publisher, Princeton University 23 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,000 Press, or of course your local bookstore. 24 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,001 So I'd like to run through some basic logistics for today. 25 00:01:29,001 --> 00:01:32,001 We have automated captions available for our discussion. 26 00:01:32,001 --> 00:01:36,000 You can turn those on using the live transcript feature of Zoom. 27 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:41,000 All registrants will receive an email tomorrow with today's recording. 28 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:42,001 Yes, we are recording today's session. 29 00:01:42,001 --> 00:01:47,000 We will be uploading that to archive. org, preserving it there and making it 30 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,001 available for everyone to view starting tomorrow. 31 00:01:50,001 --> 00:01:53,001 And of course, also the links that we're sharing out and the chat. 32 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,001 So for those of you who are wanting to write down all the resources, don't worry. 33 00:01:58,001 --> 00:02:00,001 Everything that you see here presented in chat will be 34 00:02:00,001 --> 00:02:02,001 part of the recording package. 35 00:02:02,001 --> 00:02:04,001 So you can have those links afterwards. 36 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,000 Now you can see that we do have the chat open. 37 00:02:07,001 --> 00:02:09,001 Please do be respectful in your communications today. 38 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:17,000 Keep your comments on topic and do use the chat to submit questions for our 39 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,000 panelists, which we'll take towards the end of our conversation. 40 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:25,000 But for now, please keep doing what you're doing and use the chat to say hello 41 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,001 and let us know who you are and where you're tuning in from today. 42 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,001 I'll mention those of you. 43 00:02:31,001 --> 00:02:33,001 I see that there are a number of people who are 44 00:02:33,001 --> 00:02:35,000 frequent attendees at our book talks. 45 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,000 You might notice that I'm in a different spot. 46 00:02:37,001 --> 00:02:41,001 I'm actually in Mishawaka, Indiana right now at our 47 00:02:41,001 --> 00:02:43,001 literacy partners, Better World Books. 48 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,001 I came here to celebrate a holiday party for the workers who help the Internet 49 00:02:48,001 --> 00:02:52,001 Archive in making books available through 50 00:02:52,001 --> 00:02:54,001 our controlled digital lending environment. 51 00:02:54,001 --> 00:02:59,000 So glad to be here today and glad to be here part of this conversation. 52 00:02:59,001 --> 00:03:03,001 So as we get started, I would I would like to welcome Brewster Kale, the Internet 53 00:03:03,001 --> 00:03:07,000 Archive's founder and digital librarian to the screen for 54 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,000 a little context setting. 55 00:03:09,001 --> 00:03:10,000 Brewster, are you there? 56 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,000 Thank you very much, Chris. 57 00:03:12,001 --> 00:03:15,000 And thank you very much for everybody for coming today. 58 00:03:15,001 --> 00:03:21,000 I think of these book talks as my fantasy dinner party, right, where you get to 59 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:26,000 go and have your favorite people have a conversation with you and around you 60 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,000 that you've always wanted to happen. 61 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,001 So I read Peter Baldwin's book and it blew my mind. 62 00:03:32,001 --> 00:03:35,001 It was I mean, I've read a lot about copyright stuff, but it's 63 00:03:35,001 --> 00:03:37,000 always been sort of the same, same, same. 64 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:42,000 But this is really a different perspective of how did we get into this mess and 65 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:47,000 where where are the conflicts over time that made it so that we're kind of having 66 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,000 these these issues that were that we're having. 67 00:03:50,001 --> 00:03:53,000 So I'm very glad you're here. 68 00:03:53,001 --> 00:03:55,001 I actually like physical books myself. 69 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:57,000 Highly recommend it. 70 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,000 But it's great to be able to search it online. 71 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,000 So thank you, Peter, for making this available. 72 00:04:04,001 --> 00:04:07,001 So thank you all for for coming today, Chris. 73 00:04:09,001 --> 00:04:10,001 Thanks, Brewster. Yeah, I'm the same way. 74 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:12,000 You know, I love digital books. 75 00:04:12,001 --> 00:04:15,001 I love the the ease and the utility of digital books. 76 00:04:15,001 --> 00:04:19,001 And I love to read and print when whenever possible. 77 00:04:19,001 --> 00:04:23,001 So I also have a physical copy of the copyright wars in addition to being able to 78 00:04:23,001 --> 00:04:26,001 search and search through the text. 79 00:04:26,001 --> 00:04:30,000 Thanks to Peter making the book available at the Internet Archive. 80 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,000 So it's now my pleasure to welcome Dave Hanson to the screen. 81 00:04:34,001 --> 00:04:38,001 Dave is the executive director of Authors Alliance and he's going to set the 82 00:04:38,001 --> 00:04:42,000 stage for today's discussion and also introduce our speakers. 83 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:43,000 So over to you, Dave. 84 00:04:44,001 --> 00:04:48,000 Thanks, Chris. So and thank you all for joining. 85 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:49,001 This is a really great turnout. 86 00:04:50,001 --> 00:04:55,000 This is our third author talk that we've done this fall with Internet Archive. 87 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:59,000 And I think we're hitting pretty close to record participation. 88 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,001 So so we're really excited to be able to do this series with Internet Archive. 89 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:10,000 Authors Alliance is a nonprofit organization formed in 2014 with the mission of 90 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,000 advancing the interests of authors who want to serve the public good 91 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:14,001 by sharing their creations broadly. 92 00:05:15,001 --> 00:05:20,000 Our vision and voice are really unique among organizations participating in 93 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,000 debates around copyright and free expression and fair use and other 94 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:24,001 public policy issues. 95 00:05:24,001 --> 00:05:29,001 I joined Authors Alliance as executive director this past summer. 96 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,000 For that, I formerly served as lead for copyright and information policy at Duke 97 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,001 University and I was responsible for their library 98 00:05:36,001 --> 00:05:38,001 collections and research services. 99 00:05:39,001 --> 00:05:43,000 And a big reason why I joined is because Authors Alliance really is the only 100 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:48,001 nonprofit membership based organization that really represents the public 101 00:05:48,001 --> 00:05:53,000 interest minded authors perspective on issues relating to information policy. 102 00:05:53,000 --> 00:06:00,000 And I think many of you on the call know that there there's a really alternative 103 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,001 narrative out there and we provide an alternative to that to the to the 104 00:06:04,001 --> 00:06:09,000 protectionist positions of entertainment and big media lobbyists. 105 00:06:10,001 --> 00:06:17,001 And as we're going to hear about in a bit, you know, there is this ongoing war as 106 00:06:17,001 --> 00:06:22,001 described in the book and ongoing and debate with very different perspectives on 107 00:06:22,001 --> 00:06:26,001 what the law should look like and how it should benefit authors and creators 108 00:06:26,001 --> 00:06:28,000 and publishers and the public. 109 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,000 So, so if Authors Alliance and our mission sounds like a description of your 110 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,000 interest, we would really love to have you join us. 111 00:06:37,001 --> 00:06:40,001 Membership is free. It's a great way to help us represent your interests and 112 00:06:40,001 --> 00:06:45,001 amplify your voice. So you can click the link there or type in that 113 00:06:45,001 --> 00:06:47,001 link and love to hear from you. 114 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:54,001 So now it is my pleasure to introduce Peter Baldwin and 115 00:06:54,001 --> 00:07:00,000 Pamela Samuelson. So first, Pam, Pamela Samuelson is the Richard M. Sherman 116 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,001 Distinguished Professor of Law and Information at 117 00:07:02,001 --> 00:07:04,000 the University of California, Berkeley. 118 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:10,000 She's a pioneer in digital copyright law, intellectual property, cyber law 119 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,000 and information policy. 120 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,000 Since 1996 she's held a joint appointment at the Berkeley Law School and 121 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:18,001 UC Berkeley School of Information. 122 00:07:19,001 --> 00:07:23,001 And she is the director, a director of the internationally renowned Berkeley 123 00:07:23,001 --> 00:07:25,001 Center for Law and Technology. 124 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:32,000 And among my favorite of her many, many achievements is that she is the co 125 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,001 founder and chair of the board of Authors Alliance. 126 00:07:37,001 --> 00:07:43,000 And Pam will be in conversation today with Peter Baldwin. Peter Baldwin is a 127 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,001 historian and professor at UCLA. 128 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,000 His interests are in the historical development of the modern state. 129 00:07:49,001 --> 00:07:54,000 He's published many works on the comparative history of the welfare state, on 130 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:59,000 social policy more broadly, on public health and on the history of copyright. 131 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:04,000 He's the author of The Copyright Wars, Three Centuries of Transatlantic Battle, 132 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,001 the book we're here to talk about today. His other recent works include Command 133 00:08:08,001 --> 00:08:12,001 and Persuade, Crime Law and State Across History by MIT Press. 134 00:08:13,001 --> 00:08:18,001 And a forthcoming book that I'm really excited about titled Athena Unbound, Why 135 00:08:18,001 --> 00:08:24,001 and How Academic Knowledge Should Be Free for All forthcoming from the MIT Press. 136 00:08:25,001 --> 00:08:30,000 And I'm also very proud to say Peter is a member of the Authors Alliance Advisory 137 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:36,001 Board. And with that, I will hand it over to Peter to give a 138 00:08:37,001 --> 00:08:41,001 brief overview and intro and take it away. So thank you. 139 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:44,001 Thank you very much. 140 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,000 It's, you know, almost 10 years since the book came out. A lot has happened in 141 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,001 the meantime, and I'm very lattered to be asked to do this and amazed at the 142 00:08:54,001 --> 00:09:00,001 interest and grateful to Pam for being willing to take on this conversation. Of 143 00:09:00,001 --> 00:09:05,000 course, Pam, I've been reading your stuff for a long time now. So you're a real 144 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:09,000 player in this field and I'm an outside observer. But what I can bring is 145 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,000 possibly a kind of historical perspective to it. 146 00:09:12,001 --> 00:09:18,000 If you look back at the history of copyright, copyright is today largely the 147 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,001 same system everywhere in the world. 148 00:09:20,001 --> 00:09:25,000 Term lengths differ slightly among jurisdictions. You know, fair use is a bit 149 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,001 less generous in some places than others. The first sale doctrine doesn't always 150 00:09:29,001 --> 00:09:33,000 allow the lending of the same content in all places. 151 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,000 But this is fairly minor kinds of differences among the 152 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:38,001 various systems that exist in the world. 153 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,001 But this uniformity that we see now was not always true historically. When 154 00:09:42,001 --> 00:09:47,000 copyright first began in the early 18th century in England and then spread from 155 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,000 there, copyright was approached very differently in different jurisdictions. 156 00:09:51,001 --> 00:09:56,001 The fundamental point of intellectual property and copyright is to accomplish two 157 00:09:56,001 --> 00:10:02,000 effectively contradictory goals. First of all, it is to offer creators some 158 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,001 guarantee of profiting from their efforts. 159 00:10:05,001 --> 00:10:10,001 And to that end, creators are offered a temporary monopoly during 160 00:10:10,001 --> 00:10:12,000 which they can exploit their work. 161 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:19,000 But the return on that promise, the return for society, is that once the period 162 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,001 of temporary monopoly is over, of course, the work then joins the public domain 163 00:10:22,001 --> 00:10:25,000 and is available for anyone to use. 164 00:10:26,001 --> 00:10:31,001 Now, that means that copyright is effectively two faced and it can go in opposing 165 00:10:31,001 --> 00:10:35,001 directions. It can either be focused on the creators and their rewards on the one 166 00:10:35,001 --> 00:10:40,000 hand, or it can be focused on the public domain and what the audience expects in 167 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,000 the way of having content delivered. 168 00:10:42,001 --> 00:10:45,001 And depending on how you formulate copyright, it can 169 00:10:45,001 --> 00:10:47,000 emphasize one aspect or the other. 170 00:10:48,001 --> 00:10:52,000 Now, throughout the 18th century, when copyright first began, these two sets of 171 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,000 interests were largely held in balance. 172 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,001 Terms were short. At first they were just 14 years and only a few kinds of works 173 00:10:59,001 --> 00:11:01,001 were protected, mainly writings. 174 00:11:02,001 --> 00:11:08,000 But having won this beachhead, creators and their disseminators strove for more. 175 00:11:08,001 --> 00:11:10,001 If novels and essays and plays were 176 00:11:10,001 --> 00:11:13,000 protected, you know, why not engravings of music? 177 00:11:13,001 --> 00:11:18,000 And if these works were protected for 14 years, why not longer? And if they were 178 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:23,000 protected against being reprinted, why not against other uses like translation or 179 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:27,001 Bridgeman or editing or otherwise being used for derivative works? 180 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:33,000 All these other uses were eventually protected as well, which meant that any such 181 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,000 use required permission and payment to the author. 182 00:11:37,001 --> 00:11:42,001 So protection lengthened in duration, to the point we've arrived at now, where it 183 00:11:42,001 --> 00:11:44,001 is basically a life of the author plus 70. 184 00:11:45,001 --> 00:11:50,000 And protection broadened in scope, to the extent that every conceivable creative 185 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,000 act is protected the instant it occurs without having to undertake any 186 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,000 formalities or registration, that sort of thing. 187 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:01,001 So it's a huge expansion of rights for the authors in two directions. 188 00:12:02,001 --> 00:12:06,000 Now, in this process of expanding, different nations took different approaches, 189 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,000 depending on whose claims they took most seriously, whether they were most 190 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:14,001 interested in the author's claims or most interested in the audience's claims. 191 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,001 And on the whole, looking back historically, it's fair to say, and this is what 192 00:12:19,001 --> 00:12:23,000 the bulk of the book deals with, that continental Europe favoured the interests 193 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,001 of creators and gave them ever longer and broader powers. 194 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:32,000 And this is what I in the book call the author's rights tradition. The author's 195 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:36,001 rights tradition regards creators as having a natural law property right in 196 00:12:36,001 --> 00:12:42,001 works, which in theory should mean that they own them in perpetuity, but if not 197 00:12:42,001 --> 00:12:45,000 perpetually, at least they own them for a very long time. 198 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:51,001 And in contrast to this, we then had the copyright tradition, more narrowly 199 00:12:51,001 --> 00:12:56,001 defined, a specific use of the term copyright here, which in the 18th and 19th 200 00:12:56,001 --> 00:13:01,000 centuries was adopted basically in the Anglo-Saxon nations in the UK as 201 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:02,001 well, but above all in the US. 202 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:07,001 And this copyright tradition emphasised the interests of the public in cheap, 203 00:13:07,001 --> 00:13:09,000 easily available enlightenment. 204 00:13:10,001 --> 00:13:14,001 It argued that authors had no more rights in their works than anyone has natural 205 00:13:14,001 --> 00:13:19,001 rights in tangible property, and it's only by virtue of the state policing 206 00:13:19,001 --> 00:13:22,000 property rights that they can be enforced at all. 207 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:27,000 And in return for the state enforcing limited rights to exploit their property, 208 00:13:27,001 --> 00:13:32,000 authors therefore had to surrender it eventually to the public domain. 209 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,001 Let me give you just two very brief examples, historical examples, of how the 210 00:13:37,001 --> 00:13:41,001 contrast between these traditions worked itself out in practice over the 211 00:13:41,001 --> 00:13:43,000 19th and 20th centuries. 212 00:13:44,001 --> 00:13:48,001 During the 19th century, the US refused to grant foreign authors 213 00:13:48,001 --> 00:13:50,000 copyright protection at all. 214 00:13:50,001 --> 00:13:53,001 That allowed US publishers to print bootleg editions of 215 00:13:53,001 --> 00:13:55,001 European writers at cheap prices. 216 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,001 The US in the 19th century had the largest literate reading public in the world, 217 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,001 and these publishers wanted to exploit. 218 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,001 So American editions were massive and they were cheap, entire novels were 219 00:14:08,001 --> 00:14:13,000 published in periodicals, Charles Dickens was serialised on the back of railway 220 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:18,001 trying timetables, and effectively education and enlightenment was spread as 221 00:14:18,001 --> 00:14:22,001 cheaply and as widely as possible, thanks to the European 222 00:14:22,001 --> 00:14:24,000 authors having no copyright. 223 00:14:25,001 --> 00:14:29,000 It was only toward the end of the 19th century that the US finally conceded 224 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:35,000 foreign authors protection, and that happened when some US authors, people like 225 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,000 Harriet Beecher Stowe and Mark Twain and Walt Whitman, when some of these 226 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,000 American authors became popular in Europe, and American publishers discovered 227 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,000 what it meant to be the victims of pirated editions. 228 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,001 In other words, the change happened, the change to giving European authors 229 00:14:49,001 --> 00:14:54,001 copyright protection in the US, the change happened when the US became a cultural 230 00:14:54,001 --> 00:14:57,001 exporter and when its publishers shifted interest. 231 00:14:58,001 --> 00:15:04,000 The US then took the first of many steps towards the European view of authors 232 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,001 rights that has since come to dominate intellectual property. 233 00:15:08,001 --> 00:15:11,001 That's the first example. The second example, and this is sort of from the other 234 00:15:11,001 --> 00:15:15,000 side of the spectrum, has to do with moral rights. 235 00:15:16,001 --> 00:15:20,001 Moral rights were emblematic of the European approach. Authors were given almost 236 00:15:20,001 --> 00:15:25,000 total control over their works, they could prevent them from appearing, except 237 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:31,000 precisely as they wanted, and they could prevent works and any uses 238 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:36,000 of their works. In the most extreme case, authors were given a withdrawal right, 239 00:15:36,001 --> 00:15:40,000 that is to say they could withdraw works from the market and forbid their use 240 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:44,000 even after they had been published. In practice, this didn't work out very 241 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:48,000 realistically, but in theory it was a right that they were granted. So just as 242 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:54,001 one among many examples, in 1954, the French band Carmen Jones, which was the 243 00:15:54,001 --> 00:16:00,001 film by Otto Preminger of Bizet's opera, Carmen, and the reason they did so was 244 00:16:00,001 --> 00:16:06,000 that Bizet's heirs found that Carmen Jones, which was set among Black Americans, 245 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,001 they found this to be a setting that was unworthy of the now dead master. 246 00:16:11,001 --> 00:16:15,000 Now, these sorts of contrasts between, on the one hand, the author's rights 247 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,001 tradition and the copyright tradition, peaked during the middle decades of the 248 00:16:19,001 --> 00:16:24,001 20th century, and since that time, the two sides, the Anglo-Saxon nations and the 249 00:16:24,001 --> 00:16:30,000 European continental nations, have begun to approximate each other largely in 250 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:34,000 tune with how the Anglo-Saxons have adopted the author's rights approach. 251 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:41,001 This change was driven, above all, because the US content industries eventually 252 00:16:41,001 --> 00:16:45,001 became the world's biggest cultural exporters during the latter half of the 20th 253 00:16:45,001 --> 00:16:49,001 century, and they therefore developed an interest in strong protection for their 254 00:16:49,001 --> 00:16:53,001 property, much as the Europeans had had earlier in 255 00:16:53,001 --> 00:16:55,000 this period that we're looking at. 256 00:16:55,000 --> 00:17:00,000 The Google Books Project demonstrates that this transatlantic divergence still 257 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,001 exists, even though it has been moderated. When Google presented its plans in 258 00:17:04,001 --> 00:17:10,000 2004, the European reaction to it was hostile, author's rights were being 259 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,000 violated, this was the European position, the Anglophone cultural molloch was 260 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,001 seen as once again trying to dominate the world. 261 00:17:18,001 --> 00:17:24,000 And we can also see a sort of resonance of this dispute in the discussions over 262 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:30,000 the Safe Harbors provisions of how content that is posted on the web is treated. 263 00:17:30,001 --> 00:17:35,000 Safe Harbors give content disseminators some protection against claims of 264 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,001 infringement for the works that they post, and the EU is now in the process of 265 00:17:39,001 --> 00:17:45,000 clamping down on these kinds of liability exceptions, while in the US the debate 266 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,001 about this has only just begun. 267 00:17:48,001 --> 00:17:55,000 And that brings us to the question of open access, because if you look at 268 00:17:55,000 --> 00:18:00,000 the historical trajectory, you might expect there to be a broader divergence on 269 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:05,000 open access between Europe and America than in fact there seems to be. 270 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:10,000 In theoretical terms, it's true that the debate over open access was started 271 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:15,000 earlier and in many ways conducted much more fervently in the US, but in 272 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:21,000 practical terms the European seem to have beaten the US in the race. 273 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:27,000 The EU has now, by now passed an orphan works law that allows orphan works to be 274 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,000 digitized, for example, even though at the same time it demands 275 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,001 payments for authors. 276 00:18:32,001 --> 00:18:38,000 And of course plan S which mandates gold open access for academic research is a 277 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:42,001 European initiative that has gotten fairly widespread support in Europe, they're 278 00:18:42,001 --> 00:18:46,001 not uniformly and only in some extent in this country. 279 00:18:46,001 --> 00:18:51,001 So an interesting question, and I won't try to answer it now, I'd leave that for 280 00:18:51,001 --> 00:18:55,001 the discussion instead is given this historical trajectory with the two 281 00:18:55,001 --> 00:18:57,000 divergent approaches to copyright. 282 00:18:57,001 --> 00:19:02,000 Why is it that with open access, in fact, the Gulf seems to have narrowed 283 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,001 somewhat and the two sides have reached some kind of rapprochement. 284 00:19:05,001 --> 00:19:12,000 So let me stop there for fear of monopolizing what time we have. 285 00:19:16,001 --> 00:19:21,001 Well, I want to start by saying thank you Peter for writing that book. 286 00:19:21,001 --> 00:19:28,000 I think, while I have been familiar with a good part of the history of the 287 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:33,001 copyright wars in a. There were so many details about those. 288 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:41,000 The ways in which copyright has been, from my standpoint misused that I didn't 289 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,000 know about so you've given me a lot of examples to work 290 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,000 with. And so thank you for that. 291 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:54,000 But also, I, I think, as Brewster suggested, so many of us think that the 292 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,000 copyright wars of the modern era are completely new. 293 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,000 And I think you have done such a good job and helping us kind of understand that, 294 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,001 hey, this has been going on for hundreds of years and you know it waxes 295 00:20:07,001 --> 00:20:09,000 and wanes back and forth. 296 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:15,000 And we are in today, a little bit of a lull. But 297 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:21,001 as somebody who is a very active participant in the copyright wars in the 298 00:20:21,001 --> 00:20:28,000 1990s. I can tell you that for those of you who are just in 299 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:29,001 junior high school at that point. 300 00:20:29,001 --> 00:20:36,000 That was actually really really hard fought and the Clinton administration 301 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:42,001 in 1994 1995 would have had copyright essentially. 302 00:20:43,001 --> 00:20:50,000 So broad that the internet would practically have to be shut down. So, every 303 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:56,000 temporary and every permanent copy of works would be 304 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:01,000 within the exclusive rights of the, of the rights holder. 305 00:21:01,001 --> 00:21:08,001 [...] ISPs would be strictly liable for every infringing copy of every 306 00:21:08,001 --> 00:21:13,000 infringing work that might be on their system. And there would be no need for 307 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:19,000 fair use because because everything could be licensed and that was kind of the 308 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:26,000 picture that not only the Clinton administration supported but also 309 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:32,001 there was a draft international treaty the wipe a copyright treaty in 1996. 310 00:21:34,001 --> 00:21:40,000 The draft treaty would have made all of those exclusive rights. 311 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:46,000 [...] made expansions into an international norm. Now, 312 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:52,000 this is actually a good example that fighting back against the high 313 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:57,000 protectionists can sometimes be successful and so the wipe a copyright treaty 314 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:04,000 that finally got adopted in 1996 was actually a pretty good one. So they 315 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:10,001 dropped the temporary copy as a norm. They dropped the ISP strict 316 00:22:10,001 --> 00:22:16,000 liability rule, and the wipe a copyright treaty. 317 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:22,000 Not only said you can continue to use the exceptions that are in your national 318 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:27,000 copyright law now but also new exceptions can be can be added so this was 319 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:34,000 actually a place where some of the US representatives to the wipe oh 320 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:40,001 treaty, some of the Nordic nations some Africa, and some from Asia, kind of got 321 00:22:40,001 --> 00:22:46,001 together and said, Hey, this high protectionist international treaty draft. 322 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,000 We don't want any part of it. And so, this was actually a place where 323 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,000 there was something of a victory now. 324 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:59,000 I do, you know, I when when it comes to the digital millennium copyright act. 325 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:06,001 We didn't win everything, but, but the ISP safe harbors has been enormously 326 00:23:06,001 --> 00:23:12,001 important to the growth of the internet economy and allowing the the hosting of 327 00:23:12,001 --> 00:23:14,001 content on sites. 328 00:23:15,001 --> 00:23:22,000 Everything from YouTube to WordPress, and we're very happy 329 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:29,000 that the that the DMCA safe harbors has not only protected the interests 330 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:35,000 of the platforms that that provide this space but also has enabled 331 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:39,000 users to be able to make fair uses. 332 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:45,001 And, you know, the platforms don't have to take anything down until and 333 00:23:45,001 --> 00:23:52,001 unless the copyright owner identifies what works have been infringed and then the 334 00:23:52,001 --> 00:23:59,001 platforms have a responsibility to investigate and take it down if the claim is 335 00:23:59,001 --> 00:24:06,001 is solid but it does seem to me that the DMCA wasn't far back. 336 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:12,001 I hate the anti circumvention rules but but even they have been modified 337 00:24:12,001 --> 00:24:19,000 considerably because Congress put in a provision that allows 338 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:25,000 the Copyright Office essentially to grant new exemptions to the anti 339 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:31,001 circumvention laws, and so we both were enabling print disabled access to works. 340 00:24:32,001 --> 00:24:38,001 And most recently, author's alliance helped to get an exception for text and data 341 00:24:38,001 --> 00:24:45,000 mining so we can basically digital humanity scholars can now do text and data 342 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,001 mining on DVD movies and on ebooks as, even 343 00:24:49,001 --> 00:24:51,000 though they're technically protected so. 344 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:56,001 So, so there are there are some good things that have resulted from these wars, 345 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,001 but unfortunately the wars are not over. 346 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:06,001 Pamela, I wonder if what you would your description of the DMCA and the 347 00:25:06,001 --> 00:25:12,001 Millennium Copyright Act in the battles over that highlight something that from a 348 00:25:12,001 --> 00:25:16,001 sort of a longer historical perspective is one of the key aspects to copyright 349 00:25:16,001 --> 00:25:21,000 and you know the hopes for channeling reform in the right direction, and that is 350 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,000 that there really aren't very many unified actors in this game or rather there 351 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,001 are a lot of actors with different with different interests so even authors don't 352 00:25:29,001 --> 00:25:34,000 have a single voice because you have what one might call you know primary authors 353 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:39,000 who create something above all by themselves, and who think that they own it and 354 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,000 and they deserve rights for it. But then of course you have derivative authors 355 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:48,000 who the British film directors playwrights, you know who use other authors works 356 00:25:48,000 --> 00:26:05,000 and want to have free access and want to have post modern reception theory and so 357 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,001 forth and the audience becomes a creator in its own right and also has an 358 00:26:09,001 --> 00:26:15,001 interest in using the work so so even the authors category isn't isn't isn't 359 00:26:15,001 --> 00:26:19,000 unified and nor of course is that of the disseminators because you have the 360 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,000 disseminators who publish to stick with books. 361 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,000 The primary authors and they share more or less the same interests as the primary 362 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,001 authors, but then you have the reprint publishers in the 19th century who were 363 00:26:29,001 --> 00:26:34,000 desperate just to you know put out as much stuff as they possibly can as cheaper 364 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,001 prices you can, and during the battles over the digital millennium copyright act 365 00:26:38,001 --> 00:26:44,000 that split was effectively reenacted in the split between, on the one hand, 366 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:49,000 Hollywood and the content owners and producers, and on the other hand, the 367 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,001 internet interests in Silicon Valley, the ones who disseminated the information 368 00:26:53,001 --> 00:26:58,000 and didn't want it locked down effectively reflected the same split that you had 369 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,001 in the 19th century between the primary publishers and the, and the reprint 370 00:27:02,001 --> 00:27:07,001 publishers and so this civil war that you effectively had between northern 371 00:27:07,001 --> 00:27:12,001 California and southern California was what, you know, allowed the, the, the 372 00:27:12,001 --> 00:27:16,001 Clinton, what prevented the Clinton administration. You remember how, how 373 00:27:16,001 --> 00:27:18,001 buddy buddy Clinton was with Hollywood. 374 00:27:18,001 --> 00:27:23,001 It prevented the Clinton administration from steamrolling that through without 375 00:27:23,001 --> 00:27:28,000 getting precisely things like safe harbors which is effectively the mechanism by 376 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,001 which the content owners and the content disseminators 377 00:27:30,001 --> 00:27:32,001 have been reconciled to each other. 378 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:39,001 I very much agree with you that the interest of authors are not uniform, nor are 379 00:27:39,001 --> 00:27:43,001 the interests of disseminators, but there are, as you 380 00:27:43,001 --> 00:27:45,001 say, some loud voices there. 381 00:27:45,001 --> 00:27:52,000 One of the reasons why I was motivated to to co found 382 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:58,000 authors lines was because it really made me angry 383 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:05,000 when the authors guild, which is made up of mostly people who want to 384 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:11,000 commercialize their works and I think that organization has every right to exist, 385 00:28:11,001 --> 00:28:17,001 but they would basically say, hey we represent the interest of all authors. And 386 00:28:17,001 --> 00:28:22,001 so when they brought these lawsuits, first against Google for the Google Books 387 00:28:22,001 --> 00:28:29,001 scanning program, and then against how to trust the, the digital library 388 00:28:29,001 --> 00:28:36,000 of library copies that that libraries got back from Google 389 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,001 copies of the works that Google had copied from their collections. 390 00:28:41,001 --> 00:28:45,000 They were basically saying, oh we represent the interest of all authors and I 391 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:51,000 said no you don't. And so I filed a couple of briefs actually with 392 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,001 the Second Circuit Court of Appeals. 393 00:28:53,000 --> 00:29:00,000 One claiming that you shouldn't actually grant the class action status 394 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:06,001 that that authors guild was seeking and second that authors Alliance 395 00:29:06,001 --> 00:29:12,001 has members who want their works to be found and Google Books allows people to 396 00:29:12,001 --> 00:29:17,001 find our works and therefore that should be part of the reason 397 00:29:17,001 --> 00:29:19,000 why this is fair use. 398 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:25,000 And I'm pleased to say that although that was another very very very hotly fought 399 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:31,001 debate that we were able to persuade the Second Circuit to vacate the class 400 00:29:31,001 --> 00:29:37,001 action status and also we helped persuade them that it was fair use 401 00:29:37,001 --> 00:29:44,001 for Google to scan this for text and data mining purposes and to enable 402 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:52,001 search through the snippets that they serve up to, to people who are searching 403 00:29:52,001 --> 00:29:59,001 for something about Buffalo New York, or something else so it's been exciting 404 00:29:59,001 --> 00:30:04,001 to see that, you know, if you if you got it takes some action sometimes it really 405 00:30:04,001 --> 00:30:11,000 can make a make a big difference in the world and you know I think that 406 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:17,001 Peter's book gives us a reason to think that, you know, this is an ongoing 407 00:30:17,001 --> 00:30:23,001 struggle but you know we're in a pretty good space at the moment, not a great one 408 00:30:23,001 --> 00:30:25,001 but a pretty good one. 409 00:30:25,001 --> 00:30:32,000 And, Peter I very much agree with you about the divergence between 410 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:39,000 Europe and, and the US and I agree with you also that there's been some 411 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:45,000 significant conversions and the US has moved more toward the European approach 412 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:51,001 but fair use is actually an example of, of a concept that Europeans have yet to 413 00:30:51,001 --> 00:30:57,001 swallow at least some of the academics I know would like fair use to happen. 414 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:05,000 But so far, not really happening, and the Europeans are clamping down now 415 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:11,000 through new directives and new regulations to, 416 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:18,000 you know, there was about a 20 year period in which the US and the EU, both 417 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,000 adopted the safe harbor approach. 418 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:25,001 And now they're basically the Europeans are saying, well that just allowed too 419 00:31:25,001 --> 00:31:29,001 much infringement to happen so we're not going to let that happen anymore. So, 420 00:31:29,001 --> 00:31:35,001 the, you know, the, the divergence has gotten more significant. 421 00:31:35,001 --> 00:31:41,001 And it's going to be interesting to see whether that leads to more 422 00:31:41,001 --> 00:31:47,001 legislative activity in the US so far not, but 423 00:31:47,001 --> 00:31:52,000 it's a, you know, maybe it's in the early stages of transition. 424 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:58,000 Well, this is one of those issues where when once one is in favor of some 425 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,000 political inertia, and nothing changing. In our 426 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,000 case, but I mean in the case of the US. 427 00:32:03,001 --> 00:32:08,000 But so you raise an interesting question here, again, broadening this issue of 428 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:13,000 the splits among creators and their divergent interest. We take this into the 429 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:19,001 open access field which is, you know, a topic of more recent interest. 430 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:26,001 This is sort of the real the big third rail issue that often doesn't come up 431 00:32:26,001 --> 00:32:32,001 because the moral argument for open access is really 432 00:32:32,001 --> 00:32:39,000 nothing other than for those authors who have been paid already in another 433 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,001 form for your work, especially if you've been paid by taxpayers, which is the 434 00:32:43,001 --> 00:32:50,001 case for almost all scientific and certainly all academic researchers. There's 435 00:32:50,001 --> 00:32:54,001 no particular reason why you should be paid again for selling the product of what 436 00:32:54,001 --> 00:32:56,000 you've already been paid to do in the first place. 437 00:32:56,001 --> 00:33:01,001 So the division now becomes not between primary and derivative authors, it 438 00:33:01,001 --> 00:33:07,000 becomes between academic authors on the one hand, for whom open access is to me, 439 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:12,000 it seems to me a moral imperative, and all the freelance or whatever we want to 440 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,001 call them independent authors who actually have an ambition whether realized or 441 00:33:16,001 --> 00:33:20,001 not to live from their work, for whom, as far as I can see there is no good moral 442 00:33:20,001 --> 00:33:26,000 argument to be made that they should open up their work nor any economic logic as 443 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,000 to how they should be able to do it. 444 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:32,000 There are obviously of course public interest arguments, you know, networking 445 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,000 arguments and usefulness to the audience and all that sort of thing I mean, 446 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,001 obviously it'd be great if every novelist made their novels freely available. 447 00:33:41,001 --> 00:33:45,001 But I just don't see the moral argument there. Society might be better if that 448 00:33:45,001 --> 00:33:49,001 were the case but I don't see how one could go to people who expect to 449 00:33:49,001 --> 00:33:51,000 live from their work or want to try to live 450 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,001 from their work and tell them they have to open it. 451 00:33:52,001 --> 00:33:57,001 So the new divide that's opened up is between academia on the one hand and 452 00:33:57,001 --> 00:34:03,001 independent cultural producers on the other. And the odd thing is, and I talk 453 00:34:03,001 --> 00:34:09,000 about this in my new book at some length, academia is not at all particularly in 454 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:14,001 favor of open access or not nearly as in favor of it as it ought to be. 455 00:34:14,001 --> 00:34:18,000 And when I say academia, I mean in particular humanities and social sciences here 456 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,001 because scientists, that's a whole different kettle of fish and science is, you 457 00:34:22,001 --> 00:34:28,000 know, well on the way to becoming fully open access, and in another 10 years max, 458 00:34:28,001 --> 00:34:31,001 it will be and there's no particular secret as to why that's the case. 459 00:34:31,001 --> 00:34:38,000 They have the funding to do so. It costs you know 2% of research costs to make 460 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:43,001 articles and whatever books that scientists write open access it's just it's a 461 00:34:43,001 --> 00:34:47,000 rounding hour for them in terms of funding, but for the humanities and social 462 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,000 sciences, of course, it's a major issue. 463 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:55,000 And those scholars are not the ones who are leading the fight for open access as 464 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:00,000 they ought to be. If anything, they're in the, in the area guard and, you know, 465 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,001 bringing up the rear rumbling all the way as they're sort of dragged 466 00:35:03,001 --> 00:35:05,000 into the open access future. 467 00:35:05,001 --> 00:35:10,000 And it's a very interesting sort of dispute to see a group of people, my peers 468 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,000 and colleagues who want to be on the right side of things but who aren't. 469 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:21,000 I think that's exactly right. The, the humanities scholars 470 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:28,000 and the social science scholars, I think, more humanities than 471 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:34,001 social science, at least in my experience there are people in some of the social 472 00:35:34,001 --> 00:35:39,000 science fields who who embrace open access. 473 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:45,001 One problem has been that the scholarly societies have supported 474 00:35:45,001 --> 00:35:52,000 themselves through exclusive rights that they get from authors who publish in 475 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,001 their journals and since those journals. 476 00:35:54,001 --> 00:36:01,001 Very often are the high prestige journals, where I have to place my, my 477 00:36:01,001 --> 00:36:06,001 work in this particular journal in order to be able to be sure to get tenure. 478 00:36:07,001 --> 00:36:11,001 And the, you know, the scholarly society says you got to give me your copyright 479 00:36:11,001 --> 00:36:16,001 and they have to, you know, pay the salaries of the staff. 480 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,000 Through that so that's, that's another one of the impediments so I don't think 481 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:27,000 this, the, at least some of the social science scholars are fighting open access 482 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:32,001 so much as they are like, we're trapped right we we we're trapped because of the, 483 00:36:33,001 --> 00:36:37,001 the need to be in these journals and as long as those journals are basically 484 00:36:37,001 --> 00:36:44,000 proprietary, we feel trapped. So it's been especially 485 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:51,000 difficult for those people to, to find their way to open access 486 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:57,000 but even so I think that there are now efforts in some of those fields anyway to, 487 00:36:57,001 --> 00:37:00,000 to open up a little bit more. 488 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,001 Now, one thing that we haven't sort of mentioned but I think is worth mentioning 489 00:37:04,001 --> 00:37:11,001 is that open access has actually provided some competition in the copyright 490 00:37:11,001 --> 00:37:13,001 space that didn't exist before. 491 00:37:13,001 --> 00:37:19,001 And it's provided an opportunity for especially scholarly authors who 492 00:37:19,001 --> 00:37:21,001 published their monographs. 493 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:28,000 They're now able to negotiate often with their publishers that, hey, we're going 494 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:34,000 to have a five year window in which the, the book is basically available for 495 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:35,001 for purchase only. 496 00:37:35,001 --> 00:37:42,001 But after that, because usually the, the, the, that five years 497 00:37:42,001 --> 00:37:46,001 three to five years is kind of the window in which, generally speaking, people 498 00:37:46,001 --> 00:37:51,000 are able to kind of essentially enjoy the fruits of the copyright, but after that 499 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,001 we can make it available on an open access basis and so that's been something I 500 00:37:55,001 --> 00:38:00,000 think that, you know, it's been a leverage for for 501 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,000 authors that they didn't used to have. 502 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:06,001 And I think that's been a good thing. Now, one thing that I wanted to highlight 503 00:38:06,001 --> 00:38:11,001 here and this is a, you know, the latest skirmish in the copyright wars. 504 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:18,000 And, and that's the, the fight over control digital lending. So, 505 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:24,001 as many of you know the publishers of popular books. 506 00:38:25,001 --> 00:38:32,000 Want to make their books available digitally only through licensing 507 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:39,000 and only in highly restricted formats. And so it seems to me 508 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:45,000 that one of the things that the libraries have been able to do not be able to 509 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:51,001 like purchase these ebooks and lend them the way that the that books have been 510 00:38:51,001 --> 00:38:58,000 lent traditionally by by libraries, but they've been experimenting with 511 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:04,001 control digital lending and the Internet Archive was the was the sort of the 512 00:39:04,001 --> 00:39:10,000 instigator of this particular initiative, which has been picked up by many 513 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:16,001 libraries and endorsed by a number of scholars as well as other people, 514 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:23,001 and that allows if you own a physical copy of a book, then you can scan that book 515 00:39:23,001 --> 00:39:26,001 and lend the digital copy. 516 00:39:26,001 --> 00:39:32,001 And you have to do it, you know, you can't you can't digitally land 517 00:39:32,001 --> 00:39:39,000 more copies than you actually own and when somebody does a digital land, it only 518 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:45,001 lasts for two weeks, and, and also with technical protected so that you 519 00:39:45,001 --> 00:39:48,000 can't make further copies of it. 520 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:54,001 And this is kind of an effort to essentially accomplish lending by libraries the 521 00:39:54,001 --> 00:39:59,001 way that they've traditionally been able to do, but has set and several other 522 00:39:59,001 --> 00:40:06,000 publishers have sued the Internet Archive over this, and the case is now pending 523 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:13,000 in a court in New York City. And this will be the big fair use 524 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,000 battle of the of the decade. 525 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:24,001 Yes, no, we all await the outcome on tenterhooks to see what because it will make 526 00:40:24,001 --> 00:40:28,001 a huge difference in terms of what the strategy will be going forward. 527 00:40:28,001 --> 00:40:33,000 If there's a loss here that would be quite significant. 528 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:39,000 Even more outrageous when it, if we look at digital editions and libraries is the 529 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:44,001 way in which publishers force libraries to pay more for the digital editions that 530 00:40:44,001 --> 00:40:49,001 they lend them, then the retail consumer and of course the libraries argument is 531 00:40:49,001 --> 00:40:53,000 well you know library owns physical copy of a book and after it's been let x 532 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,001 number of times, they get stattered and they have to buy a new one. And so they 533 00:40:57,001 --> 00:41:02,001 build into these library licensing arrangements, you can lend it x number of 534 00:41:02,001 --> 00:41:07,000 times and then you have to pay again, or if you want a permanent copy that you 535 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,001 don't have to renew all the time you have to pay, you know, often three and four 536 00:41:10,001 --> 00:41:12,001 times the retail price of it. 537 00:41:12,001 --> 00:41:16,001 But of course there's a lot of dispute as to how long does a physical book 538 00:41:16,001 --> 00:41:20,000 actually last in a library's hands and you know the publishers will tell you, you 539 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:24,000 know, 12 lens and it's gone and the libraries will tell you you know 112 540 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:25,001 lens and still there. 541 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,001 And so obviously there's a lot of back and forth there, but it's almost as though 542 00:41:29,001 --> 00:41:33,001 the logic of the publishers is, you know, they want to be paid per land, not per 543 00:41:33,001 --> 00:41:37,000 book and so you know if the car manufacturers were to sell their cars 544 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,000 according to the same logic. 545 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:44,000 If you sell a car to a family with four children it's going to cost more than if 546 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:48,000 you sell it to a bachelor which makes very little sense in the modern 547 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:49,001 capitalist market. 548 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,001 So there's, there's some other dispute there that has to be ironed out and we're 549 00:41:55,001 --> 00:42:02,000 far from having achieved any resolution. Well and unfortunately the Even though 550 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:06,000 there have been some states that have passed laws that are kind of consumer 551 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:12,001 protection laws that that that try to regulate the way in which digital 552 00:42:12,001 --> 00:42:19,001 ebooks are are licensed publishers go after that 553 00:42:19,001 --> 00:42:24,001 and say oh that's preempted by copyright law we have this exclusive right so I'm 554 00:42:24,001 --> 00:42:29,000 not there's Alliance is hoping to work with other organizations to try to figure 555 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:34,000 out what consumer protection rules. We can 556 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:41,000 promote that would not get preempted because it seems to me that 557 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,001 the idea that, you know, libraries of the future. 558 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:51,001 Are all digital right I mean for a lot of my students, if it in the in digital 559 00:42:51,001 --> 00:42:57,001 form it might as well not exist. And, you know, the future of libraries is really 560 00:42:57,001 --> 00:43:04,000 at stake in cases like the hashtag lawsuit against the Internet Archive and I 561 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:09,001 think that, you know, Internet Archives lawyers are doing a very good job trying 562 00:43:09,001 --> 00:43:13,000 to help the court see the bigger picture here. 563 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:20,001 But again, authors Alliance represents the interest of authors who basically say, 564 00:43:20,001 --> 00:43:26,000 hey, we like libraries libraries are really important to us and access to 565 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:33,000 the cultural heritage of of humanity is something that libraries 566 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:39,001 enable and we need that to continue to we need that to continue to exist. So, 567 00:43:39,001 --> 00:43:46,001 hopefully, the courts will will see that this isn't about theft 568 00:43:46,001 --> 00:43:53,000 this isn't about piracy. This is about access to cultural heritage, which, you 569 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:57,000 know, the Constitution in the United States basically says this is supposed to be 570 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:04,000 about promoting the progress of science and useful arts as to say about promoting 571 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:09,000 access to knowledge, and the Supreme Court at least so far has basically said 572 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:15,001 that the interest of the public in access to works is the primary 573 00:44:15,001 --> 00:44:22,001 goal of copyright, not the reward to authors and not to have 574 00:44:22,001 --> 00:44:24,001 exclusive control over everything. 575 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:32,000 Well, that you raise the the elephant in the room question as far as libraries is 576 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,000 concerned because once everything is digitized. 577 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,001 You know, what what role exactly are they going to be playing. 578 00:44:39,001 --> 00:44:45,000 You think about when I was a teenager and desperately wanted access to more 579 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,000 music, more, more than I could afford. 580 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:54,000 I once lived for a while in a jurisdiction where it was considered okay for 581 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,000 libraries to lend music, you could go and lend records that's not the case 582 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:02,001 everywhere. They were of course, old and scratchy and a little bit better than 583 00:45:02,001 --> 00:45:15,000 nothing but not by much but that was the technology that was [...] build musical 584 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:20,001 music and Spotify, effectively, whatever role libraries might have played in the 585 00:45:20,001 --> 00:45:24,001 summation of music has been completely sidestepped, and they played absolutely 586 00:45:24,001 --> 00:45:29,000 zero role, and the private sector has arranged that old very nicely, and 587 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,001 apparently to the satisfaction of the average consumer. 588 00:45:32,001 --> 00:45:36,001 And the question is, is something similar going to happen to books, where we 589 00:45:36,001 --> 00:45:40,000 just, you know, sidestep the libraries altogether. 590 00:45:41,001 --> 00:45:47,000 Well, I think libraries have a big role to play in the future, at least 591 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:48,001 I'm, I'm a big believer in that. 592 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:55,000 It seems to me that there are, I'm not the only one who actually really likes 593 00:45:55,000 --> 00:46:01,001 physical books and likes to be in a place where you can actually look 594 00:46:01,001 --> 00:46:07,000 at the stacks and see what other books are next to this one. 595 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:13,000 And that's a little harder to do in, in digital form you'll more or less have to 596 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:18,000 know what you're looking for. And this kind of serendipity of the, of the actual 597 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:24,000 physical library I think is a is is an important function that is played but also 598 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:29,000 as a community center, right, at least when I was growing up. 599 00:46:29,001 --> 00:46:35,000 There would be readings right there would be sort of events where the libraries 600 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:41,000 could be a community space. And I think that space is still 601 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:47,001 quite valuable and again for authors, it was a way of enabling a wider 602 00:46:47,001 --> 00:46:51,001 readership for their work and that that function. 603 00:46:51,001 --> 00:46:58,000 I think would continue to exist but again, you know, a lot of what the publishers 604 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:03,001 would like is, you have to subscribe to my silo. 605 00:47:03,001 --> 00:47:10,000 Right. These are my books, and you license not just the book that you want, but 606 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:15,001 you license all of the books in my, in my stack. And then when you get kind of 607 00:47:17,001 --> 00:47:19,000 used to that. 608 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,001 I'll take out the ones that are the most popular. So you're still paying for the 609 00:47:24,001 --> 00:47:29,001 silo, but I'm taking out the ones that are popular and you have to license those 610 00:47:29,001 --> 00:47:31,001 differently. 611 00:47:32,001 --> 00:47:38,001 And why they tried to do that this, this year by by taking out some of the books 612 00:47:38,001 --> 00:47:40,000 that were licensed to universities. 613 00:47:41,001 --> 00:47:46,001 And we're right before the start of the semester, you know, I was assigning this 614 00:47:46,001 --> 00:47:51,000 particular book but now my students have to buy it separately rather than having 615 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,001 it within the license silo. 616 00:47:54,001 --> 00:48:01,000 And I'm proud of authors Alliance for having worked with others 617 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:08,000 to try to say, hey, that's really unfair and to do it right before the start of 618 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:12,000 the semester, when people have already planned their curriculum so 619 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,000 wiley basically backed off. 620 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:20,000 But that's an example of even when you license something, you know, they can 621 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:25,000 basically change the terms and change what the product is just like 622 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:26,001 that, and you have no recourse. 623 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:32,001 And I realize I'm not going to make any friends by saying critical things about 624 00:48:32,001 --> 00:48:36,001 libraries in this crowd and I far be it for me I've spent most of my adult life 625 00:48:36,001 --> 00:48:40,001 in libraries and relied on them heavily I have nothing bad to say about 626 00:48:40,001 --> 00:48:44,000 libraries, I do think we have to think about what the future of libraries is. 627 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,000 And, and there's some hard truths there that they are going to be very 628 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:49,001 different than what they are staying in here. 629 00:48:52,001 --> 00:48:58,001 Here, Pam. Thank you so much. This has been a such a great conversation I wanted 630 00:48:58,001 --> 00:49:02,001 to break in. We have a lot of questions from folks in the chat I don't think 631 00:49:02,001 --> 00:49:05,000 we'll be able to get to all of them. 632 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,001 But we have a few themes kind of running in here and I thought it would be 633 00:49:08,001 --> 00:49:10,000 good to touch on a few of these. 634 00:49:11,001 --> 00:49:14,000 So one of the questions that's come in. 635 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,001 Several questions that have come in are around the treatment of artificial 636 00:49:18,001 --> 00:49:25,000 intelligence, and both the production of new works via 637 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:31,001 artificial intelligence but also how the European and American approaches to 638 00:49:31,001 --> 00:49:36,000 treating copyrighted works effectively as the inputs as the data for you know 639 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:41,000 training AI or performing text and data analysis, how that has differed. 640 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,001 And where you see the future going with those two approaches are they 641 00:49:45,001 --> 00:49:47,001 diverging are they coming closer together. 642 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:53,001 And I think one of the sub questions there is how does that relate to 643 00:49:53,001 --> 00:49:55,000 at least on the American side of things. 644 00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:01,001 The constitutional imperative that we're supposed to have a system that promotes 645 00:50:01,001 --> 00:50:03,000 the progress of science. 646 00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:09,000 Yikes. Okay, I'm going to take this to you Pamela because 647 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:10,001 this is above my pay grade. 648 00:50:11,001 --> 00:50:17,000 Well, I actually wrote a paper in 1985 about 649 00:50:19,001 --> 00:50:23,000 allocating copyright in computer generated works. 650 00:50:23,001 --> 00:50:27,000 And so, this is kind of an old problem too. 651 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:32,000 And there was actually quite a quite a lot written about it but at the time in 652 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:36,000 the 1980s when there were all these people thinking about it. 653 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:41,000 It was a toy problem. And what I mean by toy problem is that there was nothing 654 00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,000 commercially significant that was happening right, it was all like, 655 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,000 Oh, this can happen in the future. 656 00:50:46,001 --> 00:50:53,000 What I'm going to do. And so, I wrote, I wrote this paper and fortunately it's 657 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:57,001 gotten rediscovered by the dozens of people who've been writing about this 658 00:50:57,001 --> 00:50:59,000 subject lately. 659 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:06,000 Now, the office of the kind of the Patent and Trademark Office and 660 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:11,000 the Copyright Office in the United States have both come out saying, artificial 661 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:17,001 intelligence works are not protected by copyright at all. 662 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:26,000 And, and so, you know, it takes a human author, actually to, to be eligible. Now, 663 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:30,000 one of the things that's going to be hard for the Copyright Office is that by 664 00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:36,001 just looking at, let's say a picture, you can't tell whether it was created by 665 00:51:36,001 --> 00:51:39,001 artificial intelligence or by human, you just can't tell. 666 00:51:40,001 --> 00:51:46,001 And so, you know, that's going to be a, you know, a difficulty for the for the 667 00:51:46,001 --> 00:51:53,000 Copyright Office. Also, you know, the closest cases that are out there, kind of, 668 00:51:53,001 --> 00:51:59,001 you know, there were actually several cases in which, you know, Jesus or some 669 00:51:59,001 --> 00:52:04,001 spirit was said to be the the author, and the Copyright Office said no, no, you 670 00:52:04,001 --> 00:52:10,000 can't, you know, you can't, you can't register the work as authored 671 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:11,001 by Jesus, it done work for us. 672 00:52:11,001 --> 00:52:18,000 So, but the the course of actually found that, you know, by editing or by 673 00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:24,001 translating the sort of a human person was eligible and so based on those 674 00:52:24,001 --> 00:52:31,001 cases, I think that the tweaking that somebody might do with an 675 00:52:31,001 --> 00:52:38,001 artificial intelligence work of some kind, editing it, or, you know, rearranging 676 00:52:38,001 --> 00:52:45,000 it in some way, that will probably be enough human authorship to to allow 677 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:50,000 copyright to exist and I know from some studies that have been done in the EU 678 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,000 that that's kind of the approach that they're taking. 679 00:52:53,000 --> 00:53:00,000 Also, but I think the more challenging question really is what 680 00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:03,000 about ingesting copies of works. 681 00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:10,000 You know, if you kind of create a database of the works of 682 00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:16,001 Picasso, and then you generate some new work that looks like a Picasso, 683 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:21,000 but wasn't created by by that, that entity. 684 00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:28,000 What do you do about that now that's a place where there's a very very stark 685 00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,000 divergence of opinion. 686 00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:36,000 But based on cases like the Google Books decision. 687 00:53:37,001 --> 00:53:44,000 There's a pretty good argument that that in that making copies of existing 688 00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:50,000 copyrighted works and using them as data and not exploiting their expression 689 00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,000 is actually fair use. 690 00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:58,000 And so, so far the case law in the United States really 691 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:04,000 is favorable to that now there are certainly people who are who are fighting 692 00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,001 about whether that should be fair use or not. 693 00:54:06,001 --> 00:54:10,000 And I know that there's one. 694 00:54:11,001 --> 00:54:17,001 There's one software program that has been developed that 695 00:54:17,001 --> 00:54:24,000 ingest the the work of certain artists and then for some of the works that they 696 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,001 that the artists created that were unfinished. 697 00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:34,001 The program basically based on what the creator did in the past. Here's what the 698 00:54:34,001 --> 00:54:39,001 final version of the work might look like, and some of the, some of the authors 699 00:54:39,001 --> 00:54:45,001 or the, the, the states of authors are claiming that that's copyright 700 00:54:45,001 --> 00:54:48,001 infringement to make the sort of the completed work. 701 00:54:48,001 --> 00:54:54,001 And I think that's a, you know, there are lots of open questions out there so 702 00:54:54,001 --> 00:54:59,001 thanks to the audience for raising another yet another place where the copyright 703 00:54:59,001 --> 00:55:01,000 wars breakout. 704 00:55:05,001 --> 00:55:10,001 So, Peter, you had talked a bit about kind of this emerging issue on emerging 705 00:55:10,001 --> 00:55:12,001 it's been around for a long time but how do 706 00:55:12,001 --> 00:55:14,000 we deal with this idea of open access. 707 00:55:15,001 --> 00:55:19,001 And there being, you know, a really strong contingent of authors who are 708 00:55:19,001 --> 00:55:22,001 interested in this and Pam you mentioned that the Google Books 709 00:55:22,001 --> 00:55:24,000 case I remember one. 710 00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,000 Remember these little quotes that stick out and in one of the briefs from the 711 00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:33,000 author's guild. They asserted that open access was in chemical to their 712 00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:39,000 interests, and they even italicized the chemical part to emphasize like how 713 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:45,001 opposed they were to this idea that that their works would be distributed for 714 00:55:45,001 --> 00:55:50,000 free. And clearly there's there's distinctions within authors and Peter you 715 00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:55,001 started talking about that, the different types of authors but could you maybe 716 00:55:55,001 --> 00:56:01,000 talk a little bit more about how that's working out in Europe right now, and some 717 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:05,000 of the, the missing pieces or why aren't we seeing some of 718 00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:06,001 that in the United States. 719 00:56:07,001 --> 00:56:12,001 Well, I don't know that we're there we're not there, the Europeans are have taken 720 00:56:12,001 --> 00:56:16,001 a few initiatives that we haven't followed up on, most of which has to do with 721 00:56:16,001 --> 00:56:20,001 the fact that they have more centralized governmental systems that allow them 722 00:56:20,001 --> 00:56:24,001 more leverage so for example, in England, the RAF or whatever they call it the 723 00:56:24,001 --> 00:56:28,000 research assessment exercise they keep on giving a new name every few years. 724 00:56:28,001 --> 00:56:32,001 So I can never keep up with it but because all the research funding comes through 725 00:56:32,001 --> 00:56:38,000 a central instance, they can actually force academics to make their works of an 726 00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:42,001 access or they shut off the spigot and you know it's been only articles up until 727 00:56:42,001 --> 00:56:45,001 now I think the next one, or at least they're certainly threatening to make the 728 00:56:45,001 --> 00:56:51,001 next one, also include books, and so, you know, British academics are really 729 00:56:51,001 --> 00:56:56,000 faced with the dilemma that there's no choice if they want to be have their work 730 00:56:56,000 --> 00:57:00,000 recognized for promotion and tenure and advancement and all, you know, those 731 00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:06,001 sorts of issues, it's got to be open access and so they, you know, they have 732 00:57:06,001 --> 00:57:12,001 them, you know, they have them in a bind as it were, and we, and the US simply 733 00:57:12,001 --> 00:57:16,000 can't do that in the same way with the any [... ] certain surface can they can 734 00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:30,001 make their stuff and you know that sort of thing. So, really, it's going to be 735 00:57:30,001 --> 00:57:35,000 harder for us to turn this to turn the tanker as the in Europe. 736 00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:38,001 Thank you. 737 00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:40,001 So one. 738 00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:43,001 One last question I think we have time for one more 739 00:57:43,001 --> 00:57:45,000 and this is going back a little in history. 740 00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:52,000 But a question came in about how and why did the US 741 00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:57,001 come to flipped from a essentially opt in to a opt out 742 00:57:57,001 --> 00:58:03,000 system, you know, following the 1976 Copyright 743 00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:05,000 Act, it seems like a very European approach. 744 00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:10,000 And at least from the perspective of libraries and archives and cultural heritage 745 00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:15,001 institutions been really devastating in terms of trying to sort out, you know 746 00:58:15,001 --> 00:58:19,000 what materials in the public domain and whether they're able to share that. 747 00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:27,000 Well, I think a good part of the explanation is that as us copyright industries 748 00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,001 got bigger and bigger and more global. 749 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:36,001 The, the copyright industry groups were 750 00:58:36,001 --> 00:58:41,001 talking about why should we have 751 00:58:41,001 --> 00:58:48,001 much less protection in the United States than we have in Europe. Right. So our 752 00:58:48,001 --> 00:58:55,001 markets are so if if the copyright at the time was under the burn convention was 753 00:58:55,001 --> 00:58:57,000 life of the author plus 50 years. 754 00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:04,001 In the US, it was like 28 years renewable for another 28 years. And, you know, 755 00:59:04,001 --> 00:59:09,001 there's, there's a reason why, you know, if, if, if they're giving longer 756 00:59:09,001 --> 00:59:15,000 protection why shouldn't we, why shouldn't the US also do so I think that was one 757 00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:22,000 of the, that's one of the major explanations but the US didn't really move out 758 00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:28,000 of the kind of opt in, as opposed to opt out regime until 1989 759 00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:34,001 because until the passage of the, the 760 00:59:34,001 --> 00:59:41,000 implementation legislation for the burn convention, which the US joined in 1989. 761 00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:47,001 If you didn't put a copyright notice on published copies of a work, then 762 00:59:47,001 --> 00:59:52,001 everyone could assume that it was in the public domain and available for free 763 00:59:52,001 --> 00:59:58,001 copy. Now, I think that, you know, the United States had to do that if they 764 00:59:58,001 --> 01:00:00,000 wanted to join the burn convention. 765 01:00:01,001 --> 01:00:05,001 And there was a reason why they wanted to be part of the burn convention because 766 01:00:05,001 --> 01:00:08,000 that's that was where the international conversation 767 01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,000 about copyright was happening. 768 01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:16,000 And the US didn't have a seat at the table, because it wasn't a member of the 769 01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:21,001 burn union, but the burn convention required life of the author plus 50 years and 770 01:00:21,001 --> 01:00:27,001 required no formalities as a condition of copyright protection. 771 01:00:27,001 --> 01:00:34,000 And so the United States basically changed to the more European 772 01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:37,001 role in order to comply with the burn convention, 773 01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:39,001 and then we had a seat at the table. 774 01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:50,000 We are very close to time, Peter I don't know if you have any last parting words 775 01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:52,000 that you'd like to add. 776 01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:59,001 Only that I suspect the battle will continue. Whatever rapprochement there has 777 01:00:59,001 --> 01:01:05,000 been, as Pamela has pointed out, it's not as though there's a unanimity. And in 778 01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,001 this particular case it seems to me we're on the right side of history, 779 01:01:07,001 --> 01:01:09,001 and I hope we prevail. 780 01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:14,000 I hope so too. That's a great way to end. 781 01:01:15,001 --> 01:01:18,000 I will hand it back over to Chris. Are you ready, Chris? 782 01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:19,001 Go ahead. 783 01:01:20,001 --> 01:01:26,001 I am. Thanks. Thanks, Dave and thanks everyone for this conversation. So I can 784 01:01:26,001 --> 01:01:30,001 sense that our audience still has some questions, and given that there are 216 of 785 01:01:30,001 --> 01:01:34,000 you still past the top of the hour so here's what I'd like to do I didn't buy any 786 01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:39,001 of you who are able to stick around once we stop the recording for a little bit 787 01:01:39,001 --> 01:01:46,000 more of a chat session with Pamela and with Peter and with Dave. So one thing I 788 01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:49,000 would like to say is that please be sure to download the book 789 01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:50,001 or purchase it in print. 790 01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:56,000 The CopyWart Wars is a fascinating read. It is really dense. It was hard to make 791 01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:59,001 it through, I'll be honest, as a layperson or just a 792 01:01:59,001 --> 01:02:01,001 librarian. But here's the great thing. 793 01:02:01,001 --> 01:02:04,001 If you own the book, if you have the physical book, you can pass it on to someone 794 01:02:04,001 --> 01:02:07,000 that you think should read it afterwards. I mean, that's one of the things I like 795 01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:10,001 most about owning books is that you can give them to others. 796 01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:16,000 So as we wind down here today, I do want to tell you about a couple of other 797 01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:20,001 upcoming events that you're going to want to check out. So I know we're, as we're 798 01:02:20,001 --> 01:02:24,001 drawing down to the end of the end of the year, you might not be thinking about 799 01:02:24,001 --> 01:02:27,001 next year, but I do want to put some save the dates in front of you. 800 01:02:27,001 --> 01:02:32,001 So we might be asking the question, well, why is the internet so broken and what 801 01:02:32,001 --> 01:02:34,001 could ever possibly fix it? 802 01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:39,000 We'll be diving into that question on January 12 when we host an in-person event 803 01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:44,000 at our main library in San Francisco with Ben Tarnoff, the author of the new 804 01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:45,001 book Internet for the People. 805 01:02:45,001 --> 01:02:50,000 Ben will be in conversation with Leila Bailey, the Internet Archives Policy 806 01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:54,001 Council, and you certainly won't want to miss that. I'm going to paste a bunch of 807 01:02:54,001 --> 01:02:57,001 links here for these events into the chat. 808 01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:02,001 So and then after the book on the 12th, later in January, we have two ways of 809 01:03:02,001 --> 01:03:09,000 celebrating the public domain. We love the public domain. On January 19, we'll be 810 01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:13,000 celebrating the works, the published works from 1927 that are moving into the 811 01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:19,001 public domain this year, or in 2023, with a virtual party. And then on the next 812 01:03:19,001 --> 01:03:25,001 day, on January 20, come to our in-person again at 300 Funston in San Francisco, 813 01:03:26,001 --> 01:03:31,001 come to our film remix contest screening at the Internet Archive. 814 01:03:31,001 --> 01:03:36,000 And so as part of our celebration, we're sponsoring a film remix contest to 815 01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:40,001 create short films using resources from the Internet Archives collections from 816 01:03:40,001 --> 01:03:43,000 1927 again that are entering the public domain. 817 01:03:43,001 --> 01:03:47,000 So you can learn more about those through the 818 01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:48,001 links that we've shared out in chat. 819 01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:54,000 So to close down here today and before we kick off the after party, I'd like to 820 01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:57,000 give some some commitments and some thank yous. 821 01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:00,001 So, as we've mentioned several times throughout the throughout the conversation, 822 01:04:00,001 --> 01:04:05,000 the recording from today's session will be archived on archive.org later tonight 823 01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:09,001 and along with the links that we've shared the excellent chat commentary, and 824 01:04:09,001 --> 01:04:13,001 everyone who has registered will receive an email with a link to that recording 825 01:04:13,001 --> 01:04:18,001 and those resources. As for thank yous, a big thank you to our speakers to Peter, 826 01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:21,000 Pamela, for joining us today. 827 01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:26,001 Just a fascinating conversation. Thanks also to Dave Hansen and Authors Alliance 828 01:04:26,001 --> 01:04:30,001 for co hosting our session, and to you our audience for your time and your 829 01:04:30,001 --> 01:04:32,001 enthusiasm today. 830 01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:37,001 I'd like to just take a final note. This is our last virtual event for 2022. 831 01:04:37,001 --> 01:04:43,000 And through the 28 online events that we've produced this year we've brought more 832 01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:48,000 than 6000 people together virtually to hear about issues in the library 833 01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:49,001 and information policy world. 834 01:04:50,001 --> 01:04:55,000 Now, we could not do this and put on these talks without the hard work of the 835 01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:59,001 team working behind the scenes, who you haven't seen today or through those 28 836 01:04:59,001 --> 01:05:05,000 other sessions at every one of these conversations and so a very big thank you to 837 01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:11,000 Caitlin and Duncan, who make all of this just run so smoothly. Now, 838 01:05:11,001 --> 01:05:17,001 again, as we're as we close down here I do hope that you can join us at next year 839 01:05:17,001 --> 01:05:23,001 at one of our book talks or at public domain day, or another one of our events. 840 01:05:24,001 --> 01:05:29,000 Thank you all. Have a great day and safe and healthy holiday season.